Loading ...There were several times during Sunday's 19-17 loss to the Philadelphia Eagles where New York Giants center David Baas appeared to be having trouble getting the ball back to quarterback Eli Manning in the shotgun formation. There were also a few instances where the snap exchange was less than stellar. Initially, it was chalked up to a bad day for Baas, but it sounds like the veteran may have had a legitimate excuse for his uncharacteristic struggles.
"His hand was all swollen. He rolled three [snaps] back," head coach Tom Coughlin said Monday. "David has a big old swollen hand today and that contributed to it I’m sure."
Although no details were given on the severity of the swelling, the injury or when it was sustained, the fact that it caused such issues on Sunday night is troubling. To have a hand swollen to such an extent that a football can not be properly gripped raises red flags. And it was only a year ago that offensive tackle David Diehl suffered similar swelling in his hand, only to have it revealed during the offseason that his finger was broken and needed six surgical screws to correct.
For a tackle or a guard in the NFL, it's something that can be wrapped up or casted and played with. For a center, who needs to feel and grip the ball, it's a worst case scenario … and it's something Coughlin was unaware of until after the fact.
"You know, he never came out and said it was an issue to the point where wasn’t going to do his job. Now you don’t want to see the ball roll back obviously," Coughlin added.
Coughlin added that he had not considered moving Kevin Boothe to center on Sunday night, but don't be shocked if it's an idea he toys with in the event that Baas' hand swelling does not subside.
Photo Credit: Mike Gannon
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More injuries, sweet!
Let the Jim Cordle Era begin!
Interesting fact from NYDN:
10.There was a time a few years ago, before he hurt his neck, when Mathias Kiwanuka – even after his switch to an unfamiliar position – was starting to look like one of the Giants’ best defensive players. He’s not that anymore, but he’s still effective as a linebacker and I think has the quickness and ability to be an effective pass rusher if the Giants ever turned him loose. So why are the Giants barely using him? He was on the field for 27 of 69 defensive plays (39 percent) on Sunday night. Overall, according to the NFL’s new “playtime percentage” charts in the game books, he’s been on the field for just 111 of the Giants’ 329 defensive snaps this season (33.7%). If you’re wondering why he hasn’t had much of an impact, that’s one big reason why. This is a passing league now, which forces the Giants into many sets with two linebackers on the field (some with one) and it puts a premium on their ability to cover. That hurts Kiwanuka’s value, since at his core he’s still a converted defensive end. I just with the Giants would find better and more creative ways to use him. Whatever happened to NASCAR, for example? With the pass rush struggling, why not line him up a little more at defensive end and see what offensive line can handle four of them? He’s a good player who can make plays, but he’s not getting much of a chance anymore.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/giants/2012/10/lesson-for-the-giants-greed-isnt-always-good
Outstanding observation BleedBlue
Along with Norms pointing out that the defensive troops could benefit from more rest. The defense in general could use a shot of creativity.
And yes, let Kiwi rush the passer, Let JPP stand up. And yes, draft a linebacker who can stay on the field and stop the run. Become versatile and flexible with the parts you have in the bin.
Granted, some players are limited to what they can digest in the film room and in the play book. Others (JPP) are gifted enough to where they will raise hell and disrupt/destroy the other team’s offense by simply disguising where they will be coming from until the last instant. Or God forbid, letting the player instinctively move to where he knows he can do the most damage.
Once upon a time there was a man named “Taylor” and all the coaches and all the fans thought they needed to “TRAIN” him in the in and outs of the NFL. YEAH, THAT’S LIKE TRAINING A GREAT WHITE SHARK TO LOOK FOR FOOD.
JPP is the same type of beast………he’s a predator let him go. Kiwi is a pass rusher, let him go. Clint Sintim was a pass rusher too. He just looked like a SAM to the Giants defensive staff……..Go Figure.
I think Kiwi manning more DE is a fine idea. I have suggested Tracy but Kiwi works as well especially since he’s manning so little time at LB. But I think people have to realize the nascar package is only for certain times on 3rd downs or maybe very long 2nd downs. We need DTs on the field more than some think. 4 DEs leaves you extremely vulnerable to the run.
Very much agree with that.
You know, that raises an interesting point. Kiwanuka was shifted to being a linebacker in order to strengthen what was then the weakest part of the defense. Now with guys like Rivers shining out there, I wonder if they’ll eventually let Kiwanuka return to the position he knows best.
To be honest, I wouldnt mind seeing that at all.
Boley – Herzlich – Rivers (Williams – blackburn) at depth.
JPP – Tuck – Osi – Kiwi rotating in and out, keeping all 4 fresh. Canty – Joseph in the middle, with bernard as depth
Rolle – Phillips – Hill – Hosley in the secondary
We’d put speed where it belongs and strength/pass rush up front. Nasty.
PARDON MY REPOST
“Doesn’t make what the OP said any less true. A great run game that compliments an elite pass game only boosts a team’s chances of getting to the Bowl”
That is precisely my point GOAT. A great dominating running game typically produces anywhere from 160 to 180 yards per game. The Giants need anywhere from 90 to 120 YPG running. What are they getting now?
And yes Norm, I will wax poetic (mostly non poetic) about the teams real and perceived weaknesses because they need to be addresses.
And the remainder of us will pretend they don’t exist……some old same old and no less tiresome….BRA!!
….why are you calling me GOAT?
That and you’re arguing something that doesn’t need to be argued. Yes, all the Giants need is a ‘sufficient’ run game to make it back to the bowl in today’s league, but a great run game drastically improves our chances of getting there.
That and a great running game typically generates anywhere between 100 – 130 YPG, imo.
kinsho
I just referenced your remarks in relation to GOATS argument.
Was not calling you GOAT. I just reposted it.
Wax on all you want… I’ll just try and find some extra wax for myself that can be used to stop up my ears when you do.
Seriously, though, one pet peeve that I’ve harped on through the years is fans complaining about their team’s “mental toughness”… or lack thereof.
Sure, it’s undeniably true that all players brains are wired differently. Problem is we fans really have no way of measuring those differences.
Sure, we believe we know. Go to ANY team’s fan message board after a loss and you’ll routinely find the following cliches “the other team wanted it more”; “these players lack pride”; “emotionally soft”; blah blah blah..
It all sounds good but in most cases it’s largely horsesh!t. Until the technology is invented that allows us to see inside the minds of athletes in real time as they play the game, these explanations are little more than meaningless speculation; lazy analysis to account for that which can be better explained by actual empirical evidence.
Lord knows I’m no expert when it comes to breaking down the reasons why teams win or lose football games. And when I attempt to do so, I’m probably wrong more often than I’m right. But that doesn’t prevent me from trying. So rather than rail on the defense for being “soft” when they break down in the fourth quarter, I endeavor to look a little deeper and find other, measurable real world factors that might possibly explain it.
So, in the future, when you choose to “wax poetic about the teams real and perceived weaknesses,” I’ll choose to give credence to only that which is real. As for your “perceptions” that Reese needs to find linebackers, O-linemen, whomever who possess the requisite “mental toughness,” well, I’ll continue to regard that as the typically empty fan nonsense that it is.
Not sure who you’re arguing against. I agree with your diagnosis, but not your prescription. As I’ve said, I think our “develop players out of lots of possibilities who are a lot easier to get in the ‘low investment’ slots in the draft and through free agency and then sic Flaherty on ‘em and see who makes it through the maze” is a pretty good method. That’s how we built the “great” O-line of 2007-2008. You add a few higher picks in there when someone your scouts think VERY highly of is available when your earlier picks come up, but basically you avoid investing too much money in what are, after all, long shots in any case. Once you take a look at how many first-round picks on the O-line turn into mediocre NFL players you’ll be cured of wanting to use many of those picks on those kinds of guys.
We ALL want a better O-line. I think we ALL are disappointed that Petrus seems to have been a mistake (although I’m not giving up on him until Flaherty does). I think right now Brewer, Mosley, McCants, Cordle, and Capers are going through The School of Flaherty. If two of them manage to graduate we’re probably in decent shape as long as we keep filling the pipeline.
The Giants are averaging 89.5 yards per game. That’s not far off from what you are saying they need. We ran for those numbers when Brown got most of the carries. I think it’s the RB more than the OL keeping them from 90 to 120 yard rushing number.
Norm – we actually agree on most things. I think the only thing you might have overlooked is we kept Kuhn for many of the same reasons we kept Ojomo. I do agree that keeping 5 DEs is more likely then 5 DTs but I’m just saying I do think keeping 5 DTs is possible. Not becasue Kuhn or Austin will contribute but becasue they could be our future. Canty still has a big contract (though I think we clearly see his worth) that might not fit with so many young players need to be re-signed and/or extensions. Benard is clearly just a place holder. So besides Joseph, Austin and Kuhn could make up a large part of our DTs next year. All the points you make about DE are valid as well. I don’t know what JR/TC think of Kuhn. My point is they can have a higher value of that you do of Kuhn. Ojomo was kept over Jones, a host of DTs, Douglas and a host of CBs. Not realy murder’s row. I just saying it’s possible that the JR/TC could value Kuhn over Ojomo on the roster.
NO WAY.
Ojomo is ticketed for a big future here. Pass rush is one of the two absolutely critical strengths of this team that we seek to build upon. There are plenty of questions surrounding Osi and Tuck beyond this season.
Kuhn is a COMMODITY. If he’s lost there are plenty of others who can fill his role. He looks to be a potentially good player and a great story. But Ojomo has that “it” factor that cannot be taught.
This isn’t even a close call, and I’m not basing that on what decisions are made about how many players at any position are carried. One of these guys is a commodity. One is a possible “real deal” (very much yet to be determined, but possible). You don’t expose the latter to protect the former.
I agree with your sentiment if that’s how TC/JR feel about Ojomo. I don’t know if they share the 101 high hopes for him. “Ojomo has that “it” factor that cannot be taught” – I hope that’s the case but I just don’t know if that’s true. I’m definitely not saying you and others that feel like that are wrong because I remember similar discussions about Cruz.
Yeah all we need is someone to compare Ojomo to JPP or Reggie White and he’ll be set for life!
I’ll compair him to Osi. Ojo is much more likely to handel the run as well as becoming an excellent and speedy pass rusher. First blush.
The reason Kiwi isn’t be used more creatively is that perry fewell is a mediocre coach. He isn’t bad. He just isn’t more than mediocre. As hard as it is to say this, I believe Kevin Gilbride is a FAR better coach than Fewell.
Beatty- 2nd round pick
Baas- 2nd round pick
Snee- 2nd round pick
That’s 60% of our starters. Last year, with Kareem in there, that number bumps up to 80%.
Diehl started down the stretch and through the playoffs at LT and Booth at LG, so that’s 40% that fit that fit the description, throw in the TEs Ballard and Pascoe, and you are now at roughly half the guys responsible for the run game being late round picks or UDFAs. It looks like at good philosophy from that POV.
See below. All of that fits exactly what I think we’re doing.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000068614/article/at-22-packers-pats-headed-for-playoffs-cowboys-bills-are-not?module=HP11_content_stream
Looking at our LB situation it makes a lot of sense to move Kiwi back to DE, definitely next year and maybe even this year. I think with the way Osi and Tuck have played it’s clear we need to get another DE snaps if that’s Kiwi or Tracy. While it seems JPP could play a few less snaps as well. Rivers when healthy starting instead of Kiwi would really help our speed and coverage. I think you lose a little bit vs the run because Kiwi is good there. But with Blackburn and Kiwi we really are behind the 8 ball trying to defend the pass when they are both on the field.
Pretty much what i was saying above. I agree.
The Giants’ approach to the offensive line is actually pretty clear. I’m somewhat surprised more teams don’t copy it.
First, get a GREAT position coach (and contrary to what kujo may think, Pat Flaherty is universally acknowledged as one of the best position coaches in the NFL, and has been for many years, AND has proved his merit by turning a bunch of no-names into a great O-line once for the Giants and is in the process of trying to do it again).
Second, when you get a shot at a quality lineman whom your scouts are VERY high on and don’t have to trade up in the draft to get him, take him and smile all the way to the bank. Obviously, Will Beatty and Chris Snee fit this description and were both thought to be “steals” when the Giants drafted them at least a round below where their talent placed them on most teams’ boards.
Third, avoid first round picks on offensive linemen unless you wind up with a top 10 pick somehow (a trade is obviously the preferred route rather than where you finished the season prior) and your scouts are dead sure he’s worth the huge investment. I am surmising this because they obviously have not been in that position and might, in fact, take a pass even if they were to get there in favor of another player who could give them a greater impact or is more “projectable” to the NFL (O-lineman are notoriously difficult to project because they simply do not see many great athletes across from them in college and you don’t have a lot of tape you can really use and have to really depend on scouts surmising from what they’ve seen what that player might become).
Fourth, grab free agents for critical needs when necessary and grab them very early in free agency. Don’t worry about overpaying a bit. You’re getting them because you’re in need and see no way you can solve your need through the players you have drafted previously because none rose up to “take” the position. This fits Kareem McKenzie and David Baas.
Fifth, keep drafting and signing from among UDFAs good “value” picks who don’t require large investments, have shown your scouts some promise because of some special assets, get them in Flaherty’s hands, and see who survives. Play a numbers game. many are called, few are chosen. There may be seasons where you don’t have anyone ready to, or capable of, stepping into a “need” on that line. When that’s the case you have to bite the bullet and go to #4, above. But your hope is that you create a good pipeline that gives you quality starters and plenty of depth.
That’s the Giants’ Way, and I think it’s the right way in a salary cap era where spending a lot of money on a guy who isn’t a star (but has to be paid as if he is) really, really, hurts you.
Excellent post…
…just in time for the UUT.