Loading ...While the third game of the preseason offers a lot more insight than the fourth as to what you can look forward to in the regular season, we had our eye on a few things as the New York Giants yet again beat the New England Patriots, this time by a score of 6-3 as Tom Brady sat idly on the bench, absolutely terrified to step on the field against the Giants ever again.
Let's take a look at some of the things we were looking for and some things that came looking for us. Here's what we learned last night…and "what we still don't know" (WWSDK), since the fourth preseason game doesn't tell the outside viewer everything he wants to know about his team, all the
Michael Coe and Sean Locklear look the part:
- Cornerback Coe and offensive tackle Locklear are depth guys who've been forced into the starting lineup by injuries. Both guys have held their own the past two weeks: Coe earned praise from Coach Coughlin after the first game and we watched Ryan Mallet look his way and then continue on with his progressions, while Locklear, particularly in pass protection, has appeared totally solid. WWSDK: How long, if at all, the Giants pencil these guys in as starters. And that depends more on the status of William Beatty's back and the lower extremities of Prince Amukamara and Jayron Hosley than anything, but it's nice for the team to see them looking like they should be able to hold their own if and when called upon.
D.J. Ware probably isn't the number two anymore, the Giants run blocking is still not up to snuff and Andre Brown looked really, really good last night:
- David Wilson got extended burn last night and it looks like the Giants are getting him ready for action. Ware will likely hold on to his job as the third down back but Wilson looks ready to be next in line for carries behind Bradshaw. WWSDK: Whether the coaches are ready to turn Wilson loose from the get go. Our gut says much sooner rather than later. There's just one problem…
- It doesn't matter who is running the ball if the offensive line can't get some movement up front. We're not ones to panic over a poor showing in a preseason game, but the Giants run blocking for the four drives with the starters was uninspiring enough to wipe out any progress they made when opened up a bunch of good holes for Wilson last week against the Bears. WWSDK: If the Giants can turn around this scary trend of being unable to open up running lanes. It's unlikely any new personnel is on the way, so they're going to have to figure this one out in the meeting rooms and on the field.
- Andre Brown is one guy who did get decent blocking and made the most of it. He looked really quick, ran hard, fought for yardage and even showed some good hands on two catches. Ostensibly, he's been competing with Da'Rell Scott for the fourth and final spot on the depth chart…but at one point tonight, while Brown was ripping off successful runs as part of a 14 carry, 55-yard performance and DJ Ware was sitting on the bench, Giants announcer Bob Papa wondered aloud whether this was leading down a bad path for Ware. WWSDK: if the Giants have any plans to carry five running backs. And if not, who's the odd man out?
Jury still out on Mitch Petrus:
- This whole paragraph is a WWSDK: if Petrus can get the job done. It's hard to tell from the broadcast but it looked like a rough night for Petrus. Running to the right side (not all Petrus' fault of course) was largely unsuccessful the first four drives and Petrus got beat badly for a sack to end the second drive. Let's put it this way, we're a little more comfortable with Locklear as the swing tackle than Petrus as the swing guard.
Jacquian Williams is healthy, Keith Rivers is deadly:
- Nice to see Williams for the first time really this preseason as we head in to what was supposed to be his breakout season. The arrival of Keith Rivers might push him down the depth chart a bit, but good timing for Williams to get healthy especially with Michael Boley on the shelf. WWSDK: Where exactly Williams fits in, if at all, in the linebacker rotation.
- We've talked about Keith Rivers all preseason and we're going to keep doing it because we just can't get enough. If you recorded the game, go to the Pats last play before the 4-minute mark. He's probably the Giants best all around linebacker at this point. WWSDK: Exactly where he first in when Boley and Mathias Kiwanuka are healthy. Good problems to have.
Adewale Ojomo can play:
- Ojomo and fellow novice DE Matt Broha played with the starters and Ojomo notched another big pressure. He continues to show the ability to get to the QB and added a firm whack on a Patriot running back in the second quarter and a nice play to beat a Patriot running back to the edge while being blocked in the fourth for good measure. WWSDK: Has he played his way onto the practice squad? Has he played his way off of it? Would it be so crazy if he beats out the banged up Adrian Tracy for that fourth defensive end job?
Domenik Hixon is the third wide receiver, Ramses Barden looks like he can be relative productive, and maybe we got ahead of ourselves on David Douglas:
- After some silly talk in the comments section yesterday about Hixon being a surprise cut, we wanted to reiterate that Hixon was lined up as the third receiver and should remain there for at least the early part of the season. WWSDK: How long it will take Reuben Randle to start pushing Hixon for snaps.
- Barden built off of last week's mini-breakout performance with a quiet but productive four catch, 31-yard game. He again showed the ability to use his big body to shield defenders but perhaps more importantly showed that he can use his hands to catch the ball, making a few nice grabs away from the body. He caught all four balls thrown his way. WWSDK: If Barden makes the roster for sure, and whether he can show this kind of production in a regular season game if he does see the field.
- We were ready to pencil Douglas onto the roster last week when he took the first three punts against the Bears. But a host of other players took the punts last night and Douglas was barely on the field. WWSDK: Whether the kid gets a shot at the roster, a job on the practice squad or nothing but a place in the G101 HOF.
Observations from the second team:
- The Giants second team defensive tackles were Dwayne Hendricks and Marcus Thomas. Marvin Austin isn't able to play with the back injury and Markus Kuhn came in with the third team. Make of that what you will. WWSDK: Whether the Giants stick is out with Austin, who is dealing with a back injury and never got the chance this summer to prove he was ready to contribute after two years of not playing any meaningful snaps. That decision will go a long way to defining this unit.
- Spencer Paysinger played outside linebacker with the second team. Greg Jones played the middle with the third unit. WWSDK: Whether Greg Jones will catch on elsewhere.
- Justin Tryon relieved Cory Webster when the second team came on and appears to be the next man up after Coe. Tryon had a rough showing earlier in the preseason leading to some talk he might be in jeopardy of losing his job, but it looks like we can put that to bed. WWSDK: How quickly Jayron Hosley and Prince Amukamara can get back from their injuries.
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Great job on this Simon.
I agree with all of your points but will say this: when watching closely it looked, at least last night, that Randle is a LONG way from pushing Hixon for snaps; and that Petrus is “adequate” on about 70-75% of his snaps and putrid on the remainder. Both of these guys need some serious attention from the coaches over the next few weeks (assuming Petrus makes the roster, which could depend upon who hits the waiver wire).
The more I think about it from how we contruct a football team Ojomo has a hard time beating out Tracy (if he’s healthy) for the 4th DE spot. This thought is purely based on special teams play. Tracy like Tollefson is core special teams player who brings added value as a DE becasue he’s a former LB. I don’t recall Ojomo being involved in special teams much. We kept Tollefson over others for years using similar reasoning.
But I do think Ojomo could be the 5th DE on the 53.
Note, though, that the special teams have played just fine while Tracy was unavailable. I think you may be attributing TOO much value to that part of their thinking. Of course they want the 4th DE contributing on special teams, but who’s to say Ojomo won’t. JPP was on those teams his rookie season. They’ll probably play the #4 guy on the depth chart on those teams no matter who fills that roster spot.
What has Tracy done to warrant him a final roster spot?
That’s what some people think preseason is about IMO it’s not. It’s about what the TC/JR think you can bring to the team. Draft picks are always given the benefit of the doubt. Tracy provides similar pass rush skills that Ojomo provides and more proven special teams skills. Maybe the coaches will feel Ojomo’s upside is too much to pass up and will pick him over Tracy. But it’s not about earning as much as showing talents. Really Marshall and Brota earned the spot as much or more than Ojomo but it’s clear neither are the talent of Ojomo. DePalma has “earned” a spot on the roster as much as anyone but it’s about pedigree and talent.
Tracy was a 6th round pick.
This is his 3rd year in the league. He was already waived by the giants once before ( only to sign to practice squad the same day).
He’s spent more time off the field than on it. Even now. He’s watching other people pass him on the depth chart.
Is there potential there? yeah. of course. But we’ll never see it with the kid on the mend.
And yes. I actually think Marshall can bring more to the table than Tracy.
I had the distinct feeling last night that the Giants were “hiding” some players they definitely want to get to the practice squad. That may have been the case with Douglas and Muasau. Neither has a big enough resume at this point to elicit a lot of interest from elsewhere but both seem to be guys who caught the coaches’ attention. Perhaps they just didn’t want to take the chance that they would flash against the Patriots.
I know this is a minority opinion around here, but I’ve been watching NFL running backs since my favorites were Frank Gifford and Alex Webster and I had to tolerate watching Jimmy Brown destroy the Giants regularly, so I’ve seen plenty of them. Anyway, Andre Brown LOOKS like an NFL running back who is so clearly capable of being a third-down back (he has excellent hands) and more natural running ability than either Ware or Scott that I would keep him over both of them IF he has shown the coaches an ability to protect Eli.
I know all about Ware’s experience with the team and how he gets to the right place for Eli to find him. Meanwhile, has he ever impressed anyone with any upside potential? He is what he is: a decent-but-never-more-than-mediocre back who can play a role but hasn’t really shown any compelling reason to keep him. I know all about Scott’s speed and explosiveness and special teams potential. Color me unimpressed. When has he run off a great kickoff return? Other than a blocked punt (the fault of the blocker a bit more than anything he did that was special) what, exactly, has he done on special teams. And I continue to be unimpressed by a speed guy with not a lot of lateral ability and what looks like vision and anticipation that isn’t nearly what Brown shows.
I think Brown can develop into a real threat for Eli. He’s a bit of “the big back”, a bit of a cutback runner, and a very good target as a short-zone receiver. I just like the way he looks more than I like either of the others. And last night I saw that he DOES have a pretty good burst, that he does read his blocks pretty well, that he does anticipate gaps a lot better than Ware or Scott, and that he does push the pile when hit. He’s not Rodney Hampton, but he does a lot of what he did. He’s a few years past that Achilles injury and maybe he’s just now getting back to where he was. In any case, he’ll probably be cut, but I’d make him the third back on the roster.
I agree
Of course I’ll take anyone over Ware
Ware is terrible
don’t tell me you keep an RB solely because he can come in on third down to block
if that’s what he’s there for, keep your FB or a TE in on 3d down
Ware stinks; has always stunk; and will always stink
and we cannot afford to keep 4 RBs due to our DE needs (5) and DT/CB issues
I’m coming around to believe we should only keep 5 WR’s and dump Jernigan along with PS’g Douglas
I mean, if it comes at the expense of Eli, I don’t care how fast he is, he needs to be able to block, every play, thats a no brainer. (See rHomo’s collarbone with his FB in place of a RB).
Andre Brown SHOULD be the 4th RB on this team. And yes. I think we’ll carry 4 like we did last year.
But he likely won’t be bc of that fumble and Scott’s blocked punt.
Well I read a lot of people writing posts worried about our OL. 2 things:
1. Our OL has been ish since the Redskins wooped us in week one last year. A few of us on this site actually acknowledged it, while others relied on the played out and meaningless line “hey we won a Super Bowl with this line they can’t be that bad.” This of course is stupid. We won a SB last year because our QB had his best year ever. Because our D really stepped up down the stretch and caused timely turnovers. Because our WR’s made some huge plays. Because GB WR’s couldn’t catch ish, and because Ted Ginn is soft and sat out, and his back up decided to cough up the ball twice in huge sots. And because Wes Welker dropped that pass from Brady. And because # 10 is a beast! We didn’t win because of our ish OL.
2. The really scary part is, and something no one has really talked about much, is how bad Chris Snee was last year. And more than just “hey it takes time to build chemistry on the O Line.” He was one on one bad. And this preseason I have seen several plays where he can’t move his guy an inch. I don’t know if he’s been hurt or is just getting old but he’s not Pro Bowler Chris Snee anymore. And hasn’t been for oveer a year now.
Of course all this doesn’t really matter. Running is a luxury in todays game anyway. They just better keep #10 healthy.
It did come out after last season Snee had elbow surgery
I’ve been saying since ’09 that Snee is no longer a pro bowl guard
he missed all of the ’09 preseason with a knee, played underwhelmingly that year and has steadily deteriorated from there
Baas has been a bust so far
Petrus looks like a bust
Boothe has shined by comparison; but that’s sad because he’s a perenial back-up
Diehl has always been a serviceable but unspectacular player
Beatty, who some like FF say we desperately need, hasn’t played a snap since Week 9 of last year
the O-Line is beyond bad
right now it is probably in the bottom third of lines in the league
that unit could make it a very long season
The O-line absolutely played better over the last six games, in part because Baas came back and played pretty well, in part because Eli was so hot that defenses had to play the pass first and allowed us some running lanes, and in part because we ran a lot of runs out of spread formations that forced safeties out of the box.
They weren’t good, but they were “good enough” and they did not PREVENT us from winning a Super Bowl.
What I’m worried about is that if more than one of our starters misses a lot of time this season (and we start with questions about Beatty already) this offensive line COULD prevent us from going deep into the playoffs. They have to, at a minimum, protect Eli adequately and allow for at least an average of 3-yards-per-carry (without which they will not be able to protect Eli because teams will all run-pass blitz us all season….just remember what that game against the Vikings was like years ago when Eli had four interceptions and it sounded like the entire fan base was braying for his head despite the fact that he had NO CHANCE against that defense that day). The collection they had out there yesterday may not be able to accomplish either of those tasks.
F55 – Of course the special teams were fine last night (and the other preseason games) we had what 55 players most who would have to play on special teams well to make the team. I’m taking about the 46 players active on game day. Our top 3 DEs won’t play on them safe for the FG block unit. We might have to have an extra DT active early in the season. We are carrying 6 WRs who if they contribute are just bodies. So it does matter, especially to coaches like TC. Tollefson would have been long off the roster if it was up to 101 but he added similar special teams value. The 4th DE is only going to get a handful of snaps with the top 3 healthy and Kiwi around. Special teams is more the position than 4th DE unless someone gets hurt.
Yes, BUT….first of all, players DO get hurt. Last season Osi missed half of it, Tuck was fighting injuries the entire year, and JPP was dinged up a bit too. You want a #4 guy who can still do what the Giants’ defense is fundamentally founded upon: get to the quarterback with four down linemen. That is FAR more important than whether Tracy or Ojomo will be better on special teams. Whomever is the #4 DE will have to play on those teams.
They didn’t just keep Tollefson around because he was sterling on special teams. They thought he COULD get to the quarterback. He did, on occasion, but I never really liked him as the #4. I very much DO like Ojomo or Tracy in that spot. But the one who is the better DE should be the one kept (unless we can keep both). Remember, Osi may be gone in 2013. This is a decision for now, and for the future. Ojomo’s upside looks ridiculous to me.
I with most of what you said except I’m not sure about Ojomo’s upside. Not saying it isn’t high I just need to see him play against better players. I think your own words might hurt Ojomo making the team. If we are in win now mode I think Tracy is better right now, he’s as effective as a pass rusher and has proven special teams abilities. So by the F55 thought of this season even if it’s thought Ojomo has more upside you keep Tracy. Right?
Just to point out again I would keep both. I would IR TT with the new rule unless we get some unexpected great news. Using that extra spot I keep Ojomo with a “redshirt” idea in mind. With the TT news, Douglas’ absence last night, Mosley going to IR and Petrus’ play there could be more spots to keep extra players than before. I think Kuhn, Tracy, Ojomo, Paysinger, Jones and Scott/Brown can all make the team together now.
This new IR rule will greatly help the Eagles if Jason Peters is ready by later part of the season
ain’t gonna happen. they’ll shelve him, he’s a big piece of their puzzle going foward. He’s got an Achilles injury. he’s done for the year.
Now reading the rule it appears that the IR player has to make the final 53 man roster. So Peters wouldn’t be available if they already IR’d him.
You asked for it, you got it. Our season predictions roll out today, and I hereby present to you that for which you have been asking me since before the draft: My predictions for the NFC East. Now, as you read these, I will go hide for five days and wait for it all to blow over. See ya.
1. New York Giants (12-4)
I’m not buying the tough-schedule stuff. We don’t know which teams are going to be good. No one thought having the 49ers on your schedule last year was going to be tough. I say the Giants have the coach, the quarterback, the wide receivers and the defensive line to beat anyone in the league in any given week. Will they look worse at times than they should? Of course. Could they go through another brutal stretch like the one that nearly sank them last November? Anything’s possible. But what the Giants showed us all last season is that they have as much ability to handle and rebound from adversity as any team in the league. And on the presumption that every team will have to handle adversity at some point, I’m casting my lot with the team that handles it best.
For me, this came down to a choice between the Giants and the Eagles, and in the end I went with Eli Manning, who plays every game, over Michael Vick, who’s in danger of being knocked out for a month on every play. When I went through the schedules, I had the Giants and Eagles tied at 11-4 going into the final week. And while I know full well that the Eagles have had the Giants’ number over the past four years in the head-to-head matchups, I’ll take the defending champs at home for all the marbles.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/42524/2012-nfc-east-predictions-giants-repeat
He mentions the defensive line, as he should, but this rodeo it’s the entire defense. They are rock solid this year as long as enough players get back healthy in that backfield. Hearing that Prince, Hosley and TT are all talking about being ready for Dallas gets me excited. Even if only two of them can play we suddenly have a solid defense at every position out there. And Tryon and Coe look like perfectly adequate reserves (and in Tryon’s case perhaps the guy who covers the slot receiver).
I hope I’m wrong about the offense but that lines scares me right now. My hope is that defense and special teams allows them time to figure things out. Eli will find a way if he has any chance at all, but that requires that his front be at least mediocre. I think they can be that, but I wish I were more confident. I don’t care whether they were energized or not last night. THEY DIDN’T DOMINATE the second-team defense for the Patriots. That is pathetic.
The LBs and DBs of this defense will never get fill credit by most. We can all see our LB group is much better and deeper than it’s been since at least the Jessie Armsteed, Michael Barrow days. We know we have as good as any pair of safeties as anyone in the NFL. We have maybe the most underrated CB in the NFL in Webster. Solid vets CBs in Coe and Tryon plus 2 highly talented young CBs in Prince and Hosley. And that’s without TT.
But I don’t think we can count on Prince or TT for Dallas. It’s good if they are close to being ready that’s good but I want them at close to 100% before they play. This is a long season and coming back too soon especially with Prince can cause his injury to linger and cause issues later in the season.
I still think you’re missing the fact that last night when some guys just weren’t ready to play football. If just a few guys are off it can hurt the whole offense. In college much more talented teams are regularly challenged by inferior teams just because they aren’t ready to play. I think that the offense struggling last night actually helps the offense focus on being shaper for Dallas because they know it was a terrible showing and what can happen if they are not focused.
Hope you’re right, but in the case of Petrus, for example, he ought to know he doesn’t have a roster spot tied up. When you’re fighting for your job you ought to be as focused as you ever were. And McCants doesn’t have a spot on that practice team reserved for him. Yet both of those guys looked like Saban would pull their scholarships.
I don’t worry about people like Eli. He looked lousy but really all he cared about was getting a catch for Hakeem and one for Cruz and then just wanted out of there. And you’re right, one weak link on the O-line and the whole thing blows up. But I wasn’t happy seeing what I saw out of a number of offensive linemen or out of Bennett. They’ll need to be much better next Wednesday night.
My theory wasn’t meant for guys like Tryon, Jones, Petrus, McCants, Brown, etc. They and others knew their roster spots weren’t a lock.
NFLPA agrees to NFL roster changes, including moving back trade deadline
One “marquee” player placed on injured reserve will be able to return to practice after the sixth week of the schedule and to the lineup after the eighth week. That player must be on the 53-man roster after the final preseason cut, which comes Friday.
http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2012/08/nflpa_agrees_to_nfl_roster_cha.html
I misread this at first. So we while we do have an extra roster spot when we place someone like TT on IR we still have to expose a player to waivers. That again makes the decision tough. So if we decide we are going to use this with TT we are going to maybe cut someone who we most likely can get back. Damn.
Here’s more detail:
I just want to go over the new IR rule for you folks, considering some aspects have been explained while others haven’t. I checked with the NFL to clarify some of the finer points. Here’s a rundown of everything:
–Only one player may be designated the short-term IR player for the season.
–The designation must be made at the time the player is placed on IR.
–As I stated above, the player must remain on IR for at least eight weeks. After that, he can come off at any point or can remain on IR for as long as it takes him to get healthy.
–The player must be on the 53-man roster until Tuesday at 4 p.m. (Initial cutdowns to 53 must be made by 9 p.m. this Friday.)
–However, there is one exception. Since this change is being made so late in the process, players who are already on IR can be designated as short-term players. In those cases, the designation must be made by 9 p.m. Friday. This part doesn’t really affect the Giants, I wouldn’t think, because the players already on IR are DE Justin Trattou, DT Martin Parker and OL Brandon Mosley. I’d think they’d use the designation on a more integral player.
–The short-term designation is not transferrable. So for example, let’s say the Giants put Thomas on IR as their short-term guy and then he blows out his knee while trying to rehab and can’t come back. They can’t say, “Well, he was supposed to be our short-term guy, so we’re going to use that designation for somebody else.” Nope. Once a guy is your short-term guy, he’s your short-term guy and that’s it. No exceptions
http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2012/08/giants_justin_tuck_says_nfls_n.html
I thought I was reading incorrectly, but I’ve seen it a few times now reading through this thread. I’m all for thinking positive and aiming high, but T2 really may want to add some reality to whatever recipe he is cooking up. He hasn’t even had meaningful practice time, much less, game action. I don’t see anything to be gained by him being active against Dallas. He would have to be considered a liability on the field next week.
It’s not so much about next week as it is about not having to IR him if he could get back by, say, Week 3. It’s the same deal with Austin. And depending upon what the doctors are telling them, Beatty too. In all likelihood neither he nor Amukamara will be active next week, but Hosley could be and the others could be back sooner than some feared.
From your lips to God’s ears.