Loading ...Following practice on Wednesday, New York Giants head coach Tom Coughlin announced that at least 11 players will not suit up for the preseason opener against the Jacksonville Jaguars on Friday night. Among them are left tackle Will Beatty (back), and linebackers Jacquain Williams (hip) and Michael Boley (hamstring).
In addition to Beatty, Williams and Boley, defensive end Justin Trattou (ankle), linebacker Jake Muasau (hamstring), cornerback Terrell Thomas (knee), running back Da'Rel Scott (thigh) and the four players on the Physically Unable to Perform List (Hakeem Nicks, Travis Beckum, Chris Canty and Clint Sintim) will not play.
“[Scott] has a thigh contusion,” said Coughlin. “It’s swollen, and it came up the side of his leg. It’s his second injury. That doesn’t help.”
Meanwhile, defensive tackle Rocky Bernard is listed as questionable following a flare up of an old injury.
“Just an old knee that kind of swelled up on him," Coughlin said of Bernard.
Starters are expected to play between 15-18 snaps on Friday night, with the second-team set to see action on about 20-25 snaps. After that, the third-team and additional reserves will finish out the game and fight for their chance to make a significant impression.
It's hard to believe football is already here, and even harder to believe that 11 guys are already sitting it out.
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Well, I think we’re going to see Andre Brown get his best shot at making this roster on Friday night. I assume that Bradshaw will not play much, and that Wilson will be limited somewhat as well. So it should be Ware and Brown carrying most of the load, with Martinek getting some snaps too. Scott will be watching and hoping that Brown shows very little because if that isn’t the case then Mr. Scott will have placed himself very clearly on the bubble with probably just a few chances to escape going forward.
I was hoping to get to see what Da’Rel Scott could do, but I guess I’ll have to settle for Brown. Scott better hope Brown doesn’t take it and run (literally) because this is the kind of thing that gets a guy leap frogged in the depth chart. I like Scott a lot, but not as much as Brown; though I still like Brown more than Ware.
Dirt says:
August 9, 2012 at 9:51 AM
We can agree to disagree that teams looaded up every time the Giants lined up under center and dared them to pass. This isn’t our father’s NFL, these DTs are enormous, it’s a challenge for any line to simply blow 350 pound dudes backwards.
I agree that sacks isn’t a definitive stat. But the facts are your man simply wasn’t put on the turf that often, and it can’t be 100% because of him avoiding hits.
FWIW, they were 14th in QB Hits. Teams with supposed elite tackles gave up a lot more, like Miami, who was 29th, or Cleveland who was 25th.
And why is it crazy to include the coaching in the discussion? Harbaugh took Singletary’s team and made it 13-3. Crap coaches get fired regularly.
And, look: I’m not even saying Killdrive’s strategy was bad. Hell, if you’re gonna stack the box and hold me to 4 YPC and let Nicks, Cruz and Manningham win 1-on-1 battles all day, I’d sign up for that in an instant. Hence, a 32nd ranked rush offense with a near-5,000 yard QB just won a Super Bowl.
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I wonder if the Pats (71 hits, 32 sacks) or Packers (73 hits, 41 sacks) fans are screaming for line help like Giants fand (72 hits, 28 sacks).
Good news for those that are screaming: the guy responsible for Eli’s beatdown in 1 game down the stretch is no longer protecting his blindside, and he’s replaced with a guy who helped anchor a low sack, middle of the road hit unit in the regular season.
Oh. I did’t see our ineffective running game as teams trying to take away our run but maybe that was the case. Once we provd wereally could hrow the ball we ran the ball more effectively dwn the stretch whe our opposition wasn’t focused on the run.
I don’t thin our OL was bad verus the pass but it wasn’t really good eiher. 14th in QB hit and I’m sure worse in QB pressures puts us around average which seems correct.
A few random thoughts:
I think there’s a decent chance Mr. Burress (he of the loaded gun) will wind up signing with the Cowboys. You heard me. Austin is apparently managing to have trouble getting healthy and Bryant is clearly a jerk who should not be counted upon. The Cowboys don’t have much depth at the WR spot and they might well want a guy who cannot stretch the field but can still catch a ball when it’s thrown toward him. Then all Jones would have to do is sign Shockey in order to help me up my hatred of his team to a level that might propel human flight to Jupiter.
For those like kujo who are, IMO, overly concerned about the O-line, I think you have to factor in a few things that you haven’t. Like it or not, Pat Flaherty is widely considered on of the best offensive line coaches in the NFL, and he has specialized over the years in turning unheralded players into very good groups. Remember when the 2008 Giants’ offensive line was considered by all observers the best offensive line in the NFL? How many of those guys were high draft picks? O’Hara was an UDFA. Diehl a 5th round pick. Seubert a total nobody. McKenzie was a well-regarded player but still one the Jets weren’t willing to keep at what in retrospect looks like an unbelievably modest price. Only a young Chris Snee was a high pick, and even he wasn’t that “costly” since he wasn’t a blue-chipper picked in the first round.
Now the Giants have David Baas (a really excellent player at Michigan and one the Niners did not want to lose), Chris Snee (a savvy veteran who may be a bit banged up but is still a premier guard in the NFL), a promisingly good athlete in Will Beatty who was drafted high because his athleticism is perfectly-matched to what is needed from a protection-first left tackle, a number of strong role-players (I count David Diehl as a VERY strong role-player, and Kevin Boothe also numbers among them), and what might be a terrific coterie of youngsters who are under Flaherty’s wing and being trained as we sit here. I happen to think the two kids we drafted this year may both become really excellent players. McCants is a tremendous athlete who was touted by a great college coach and Mosley is a flat-out mauler who physically dominated a lot of very good defensive linemen in the SEC. And I’ve heard that Capers is impressing a lot of people who are football people during camp drills (it will be interesting to see how he does in the preseason). Brewer was drafted as a “project” and probably requires another year before we see what he can be, but a guy that big with “quick feet” ought to have some value at RT if nowhere else. I still think Petrus has lots of upside. And Goodin is a mountain of a man who may be something (none of us know). Reese then brought in Sean Locklear (a veteran who is still serviceable even if not quite what he once was), and Chris White (ditto) as insurance.
So, they have brought in a LOT of young guys to compete for jobs over the next two years, allowing Flaherty to work with a collection of options that certainly looks like more than he had to work with while he was building that “great” 2008 offensive line. I can understand some concern about RIGHT NOW, because some of these kids may not be ready to step up and play well enough. But unless you think that Eli and his receivers, and Bradshaw and Wilson, cannot manage to move the ball and score with Beatty, Boothe, Baas, Snee, Diehl and Bennett in front of them I don’t see where the huge problem will be. The whole issue really comes down to Beatty. If he is healthy, and steps up his play from last season, I think this line should be as good or better than the 2008 line. And the youngsters waiting in the wings should make it better still.
I don’t think Plax fits with Dallas. To me they need a slot WR. Austin or Bryant can play slots but it’s not either of their strengths. But Plax will be signed at some point in the next few weeks.
I’m not worried about the OL but I don’t see 2008. I see an improvement to pushing the top 10 as a unit. So above average.
Ive just read back over the previous posts and I had one thought about kujos
frustrations about elite against average LT . First , Norm had it absolutely right when he talked about ” allocation of (scarce) resources ” the parentheses are mine . I dont care who you are at the position your job is to hold the line for a specific time because NO lineman can be expected to hold out the defense forever . In my mind the time limit is such that the linemen do there job if they hold out the defense for their allotted time , anything past that is on the QB .So ,if you have an elite tackle maybe its a question of overspending because he really doesnt have to be elite to get the job done . By elite I mean and absolute stonewall . Yes , its very nice but its not necessary . A large amount of the time the elite tackle doesnt do anything different than his average
cohort so overpaying in this area and paying extra for what is really only a couple of plays that are important is not necessary .
This is consistent with my “good enough” approach that has been savaged by some over the years. You need to be good enough to win a big game against a tough opponent. There are many ways to do that, but in today’s NFL what you need are a “solid” core (offensive and defensive lines and quarterback) led by an elite or near-elite quarterback; a strong front four that can pressure a quarterback with just four men rushing; two receivers who can beat single coverage; two strong defensive backs, one of whom can make the long pass a major risk for the opposing offense; and a good punter.
A GM can work with what I’ve described above and fill in a lot of positions with good players whom he cannot afford to overpay.
I’d argue that valuations of certain positions make no sense. I think cornerbacks are overvalued and safeties are undervalued. I think left tackles are overvalued and centers are undervalued. I think #1 receivers are overvalued and #3 receivers are undervalued. I think middle linebackers are overvalued and strong-side linebackers are undervalued. I think kick returners are overvalued and punters are undervalued.
Many will disagree. But the point is that there is a fixed amount of dollars available under the cap, and the best GMs will spend wisely at critical spots, bring in solid players at undervalued positions and sometimes settle for “average-to-above-average” players at overvalued spots (while always trying to draft great players at those spots whom he knows he will probably lose at the conclusion of their rookie contracts unless they have become an absolutely critical building block on a championship-capable team), and then hope that the Football Gods smile on them and give them good luck in regard to injuries and the dozen or so critical plays over the course of a season that make champions (think Victor Cruz’s play against the Jets and Eli’s pass to Mario in the Super Bowl).
I refuse to have my argument chopped up into an “elite v.s. not elite LT” position. Look, David Diehl sucks. That’s my opinion, and a vast amount of statistics and analysis confirms it. Can he be less-sucky in certain situations? Sure. A broken clock is right twice a day.
And yes, I recognize that there is an argument to be made about the weaknesses that could result in the allocation of a huge chunk of our “scarce resources” to paying an “elite” left tackle. Joe Thomas will rake in $10.5 mil this year. That’s an enormous sum of money, and represents nearly 10% of the overall salary cap of the Cleveland Browns. But he is “elite” and is paid for his services, which are very much “elite.”
The question I pose is whether there is something between the “eliteness” of Joe Brown–he of the $10.5 mil salary– and the utter putricity of David Diehl–he of the $1.2 mil in 2012; $4.1 mil in 2013– that we should be striving for. The choice is not between Diehl and an “elite” left tackle, but rather whether we should just accept below average play for economic reasons.
And btw, the impetus of this discussion about the concerns I have at right tackle and left guard. We have a left tackle who, if he continues to improve and can get himself healthy, could very well be that middle ground I spoke of in the previous paragraph. We have a highly-paid center who “should” be better this year after getting healthy and learning the offense. And we have a right guard who has been superb since his first day on the team, but had a relatively down year in 2011.
Kujo , Im going to disagree about Diehl . But only because within the limits of the roster and salary etc , I believe he was the BEST option the Giants had . I do not say he was good or bad I just say he was the best option . Its awfully difficult to criticize when there are no other options and I dont believe Diehl should be criticized for stepping in to a difficult situation . Every team goes through the same scenario . GMs are judged by there talent choices and money management but one of the most difficult areas to put a rating on is how a GM takes care of the unexpected problems . For this I have to give Reese a decent grade and Diehl kudos for stepping in to a position that he probably knew he did not necessarily have the speed for .
In the end, you are arguing about 2012, because it is highly unlikely that Diehl will be the starting RT in 2013. Among Beatty, Brewer, McCants and Mosley we probably have two tackles for 2013, with Diehl’s best shot at next year’s roster being an insurance policy at both tackle spots and a depth guy who can play four positions along the offensive front.
In all likelihood Reese/Ross will draft another young tackle and sign at least one UDFA who can play there and will compete in camp. Perhaps Reese will grab a free agent veteran at a veteran minimum salary if they think Locklear is done. There will be plenty of options in 2013.
You also seem unnecessarily concerned about LG. Boothe represented himself extremely well there in 2011. And in Capers and Petrus (and Mosley, who can also play guard) there are players who can challenge him if he has an off year.
The question for 2012 is whether the starting line, and the depth behind them, will be “good enough” to allow Eli to find his receivers and the running game to average enough yards to keep defenses honest and provide a real weapon if we get back to bad weather late in the season. I really do not see how this won’t be the case. Even if you want to argue that Diehl is a downgrade from McKenzie (I would have agreed until 2011, but while I loved Kareem he definitely took a step back last season, and I now think Diehl at least equals Kareem), Snee is healthier (as by the way, is Diehl), Baas played well at the end of the season when healthy, Boothe had a very solid season, and Beatty just has to give exactly what he did last season even though everyone expects him to be better provided he’s healthy.
So I will repeat what I’ve said earlier. PROVIDED Beatty is healthy I don’t see a big problem. The line should be better than it was last season, and this offense scored enough, and moved the ball enough, to win a championship and goes into this season with a more dynamic running attack, a devastatingly good blocking tight end and a quarterback who managed last season to overcome any mistakes his protection made and have a great, great, season.
I think you are obsessing over something that doesn’t merit that much concern. Unless Beatty can’t go. That’s the whole deal here.
I think this is a chance to see if Brewer can handle playing LT. We kind of know what Lockear can do as well as Diehl. Brewer should play a lot this game at both tackle spots.
I think Wilson needs a good numbe rof snaps so he can adjust to the speed of the game. Brown and Martinek should get a lot as well. Bradshaw and Ware could sit this one out IMO.
With the seeming glut of talent that’s battling for roster spots at other positions, I would not discount the possibility that the Giants go into the season with only three RBs.
Last year they carried four. And the fourth RB, Scott, contributed next to nothing on the field. Presumably, they were stashing him on the roster with an eye toward the future. But now, one year later, he’s on the bubble.
OK, Scott looks to be a sunk cost. But maybe some good will come out of his time on team. Perhaps it helped the coaches and front office to realize the folly of carrying a fourth back who does little more than take up space on the bench and the team plane.
Methinks that would be the case again this year, whether it be Scott, Brown, or Martinek as the fourth back. None of those guys have shown themselves to be anything special. At least not significantly better than the typical back than can be found on the NFL trash heap at any point throughout the year. Finding an average, journeyman RB is one of the easiest tasks on an NFL GMs “To Do” List. No need to burn a precious roster spot to carry one who does not have any sort of defined role, a la Scott in 2011.
Martinek to the Practice Team makes a lot of sense, with his being assumed to be the #4 back on call if needed. But I have never understood why teams carry four running backs unless the diversity of their skills warrants it. With the addition of Wilson I see no “special sauce” that Scott brings, and unless Brown can show he can be a power back who can also catch the ball out of the backfield, I don’t know what he brings either.
I’m with you. Go into September with three RBs, send Martinek to the practice squad, and instead of having to cut a good young player to leave room among the 53 for a damaged Terrell Thomas, allow the absence of that fourth back to keep a kid like Paysinger, Jones, Trattou, Brown, Bing or Janzen around.
I think you can only go with 3 RBs if Wilson shows a lot pass blocking wise. If not then we are limited in how much we can use wilson and left with a lot of Ware and Martinek at RB should Bradshaw miss some time.
Not a bad idea but I don’t think we can risk that with Bradshaw’s injury concerns. Even if the 4th RB isn’t on this roster I think we still need one. Ware shouldn’t ever be our #1 RB and Wilson is a rookie and might not be ready pass protection wise.
We have stregths at LB, CB and maybe DE that can be traded for a RB like the reverse Ryan Grant trade.
I don’t like the idea of trading for a back. Unless Reese and his scouts believe they’re getting some diamond in the rough for dirt cheap.
And while I can hardly be called a DJ Ware fan, I’m fairly sure that he should be able to replicate Jacobs’ rather underwhelming production from last year. So if it came to him having to take over as the #1 back before Wilson is ready, I’m not so sure it would be an outright disaster. No it wouldn’t be pretty – but it would be serviceable in a pinch, same as BJ was in 2011.
When I saw trading for a RB I mean using a player like Paysinger, Coe, etc. some player he’s an NFL player who might not make the team for a similar positioned RB on another team like Ryan Grant was for us. Either Grant or Ward would have been cut that year. Nothing involving drafts picks, that’s crazy IMO.
Jacobs might have had underwhelming production but the defense respected him. Ware is the type of RB teams play nickel on first down because of. We have to at least try to keep the defense honest and I don’t think either Ware or Martinek can do that. I hope Scott can or even Brown but if they can’t we can find another RB through trade or even the waiver wire.
Player for player trades in the NFL are a rarity.
Good idea in theory… but one that has close to zero chance of ever happening.
The NFC East: Living in the nickel
One big reason cornerback Terrell Thomas is important to the New York Giants is that the Giants really like to use defensive backs. The Giants learned earlier this week that Thomas’ latest knee injury would not require surgery and that he should be able to play for them this year. This is good news, because with Aaron Ross having left via free agency and second-year cornerback Prince Amukamara still developing, the Giants need Thomas. Not just as the starter opposite Corey Webster, but in the nickel and dime defensive packages they used more than any other team in the league last year.
According to ESPN Stats & Information, the Giants used five or more defensive backs on 734 defensive snaps last year — more than any other team in the league. That number accounted for 68.5 percent of their 1,072 defensive snaps. Only the Green Bay Packers went with five or more defensive backs on a higher percentage of their plays — 69.0 percent, or 724 of 1,049.
I know this because our NFC North blogger, Kevin Seifert, recently did a post about how often the NFC North’s teams were in nickel or dime packages last year, and he passed along the chart he got from ESPN Stats & Info showing how often each team in the league went with extra defensive backs. That’s how things work on the ESPN.com NFL blog network. We’re a team. A brotherhood. Eight pistons firing as one. It’s really quite beautiful to watch sometimes.
Anyway, I looked at the chart and noticed that the NFC East’s teams basically lived in nickel and dime defenses. Well, three of them at least. The Giants ranked second in the league in percentage of plays with five or more defensive backs. The Dallas Cowboys were fifth, at 59.5 percent. The Philadelphia Eagles ranked eighth, at 56.8 percent. And the Washington Redskins were the exception, ranking 24th at 43.9 percent.
The Redskins had injury issues at safety, didn’t like the job Kevin Barnes was doing as their inside corner and have very good linebackers that they don’t like to take off the field. But the other three teams in our division … they love them some nickel.
Back to the Giants for a second. Just because they used extra defensive backs this much last year doesn’t automatically mean they’ll do it again. They’re deeper and stronger at linebacker this year, and they didn’t re-sign veteran safety Deon Grant. That means, if they go to those three-safety looks they’ve run the past couple of years, the third safety would have to be someone like Tyler Sash or Will Hill. With Thomas currently on the shelf, there’s a chance they could ask safety Antrel Rolle to play the nickel corner position, but that’s not ideal. Michael Coe is likely the next corner off the bench if Amukamara is pressed into a starting role, and while he’s looked good in camp, he lacks experience. The Giants liked linebacker Jacquian Williams in coverage late last year and in the postseason, and it’s possible they could design more packages this year that use just four defensive backs, since their 2012 strengths may lie elsewhere.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/41608/the-nfc-east-living-in-the-nickel
Williams, Boley, Rivers.
We don’t need no stinkin’ extra safety most of the time in 2012.
There are enough backs who can be signed for league minimum in an emergency without giving up a draft pick . I think the Giants have enough talent
to get by at the moment anyway . Lets see what tomorrows game brings and perhaps some of our questions will be answered
since when are we weak at RB – with Bradshaw, Wilson, Brown, Ware and Scott?